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DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 9. 2017, 11:31

xSamWaynex wrote:
0T0 wrote:It's clear to see I never went back on any statements in correspondence to you on this subject. I was merely pointing out how laymen (like myself) could go along with the premise that Jones is a PED/Drug cheat, even though the arbitration panel felt the need to made the distinction Jones was not. Their ruling not mine, if it triggers you that much, take it up with them: not me. Also, I never said I believed Jones's "stories". In fact, I said they were irrelevant in determining whether Jones was guilty of being a chronic PED/Drug cheat. The only reason for implying that I believed Jones's stories, would be to ramble on in an unnecessary paragraph in an attempt to distract away from the real issue at hand.

The one thing you consistently omit from your essays, is an answer to my statement about Jones "not" being a chronic PED/Drug cheat with a past history of PED use, due to lack of further evidence. I don't have to answer any of those medical questions. How can a layman like myself answer questions about the reported anomalies in someone's samples? That's why these things are better left to the experts. I'm satisfied with their ruling, and Jones has since fulfilled his obligations: to their satisfaction. You should take up your fight with the UFC/USADA. I definitely don't know the first thing about ED pills, again, I leave that to the experts: like USADA, Jones, gogh and Cormier/you. See what I did there?

Look man anyone with the time and want to do so can go back and look at what you said, and how it changed form one comment to the next. You aren't willing to admit you made a simple mistake. But honestly I don't even care anymore whether or not you are man enough to admit to making a simple mistake. I am not "triggered" by their decision, but if you feel like thinking something which is completely wrong go for it haha. I stayed on topic when conversing about your belief of Jon's story. You had to believe Jon's version of events, because Jon's version of events is what was ruled on by the athletic commission. The AC believed his story and ruled on THAT alone. So YEAH ya did believe his story, as you CONTINUE to cite the ruling by the commission as to why you believe me to not be right.

AGAIN I never claimed myself to be an "expert." I merely CITED experts in the field in question. I asked you not about the **** pills this time around, but about his T/E ratio. Funny enough though you did make a comment about those **** pills that you just admitted to knowing nothing about haha. This past time I asked you to explain how his T/E ratio was so low if in fact he had NOT been a chronic PED user. You say I haven't answered your question about Jones being a chronic PED user? Then allow me to ONCE AGAIN try and get my point across. Please pay attention this time as it will be the THIRD time I have answered this question you claim I have not. It doesn't take a medical expert in the field in question, to be able to read and cite what was stated by actual experts right? Actual anti-doping experts had stated that a man of Jon's age, who did not suffer from any type of hormone imbalance or anything like that, should not have had as low a T/E ratio as Jon did. They also stated that the only time they have ever seen a T/E ratio as low as Jones' at the age that Jones is, was in cases where people had been chronic PED users.

Furthermore, A second test was administered, as the first was deemed "watery", and a second time his T/E ratio came up low. Jon does not suffer from hypogonadism. Jon does not suffer from any known chemical or hormonal imbalance. Those are the things which could medically cause a low T/E ratio. The only other way his T/E ratio could've been as low as it was is if he had been a chronic user of PED's. Even though the anti-doping experts asked for a CIR it was denied as Jon's levels were just barely at the limit and therefore he "passed." That doesn't mean he wasn't a chronic PED user, that just meant that the T/E ratio he had didn't warrant the carbon isotope test (CIR) as the T/E ratio BARELY met the MINIMUM requirements for fighters in his weight class. Mind you there are fighters in his weight class that are MUCH older than Jon who have much lower T/E ratios, and it was their T/E ratios which basically caused Jon to pass because of "grading" on what was essentially a bell curve. Now, the other point I made to you was that ONE pill used primarily for erectile dysfunction would NOT be enough to explain away this low T/E ratio, and yet Jon said that he only took ONE pill. Is this enough circumstantial evidence and logical and rational thought to cause you to question Jon's story yet? Did I answer the question sufficiently enough for you this time? If not just let me know. Like you I am starting to enjoy reading your replies. It helps me remember to be thankful for the intelligence that I have that some people like yourself lack.

I think I understand where you're at, and here's my distinction:

I would consider Justino a fighter with a past history of chronic PED/Drug cheating because she was caught a few different times in her career. But until Jones is flagged again for PEDs, most (or maybe only, I) wouldn't be confident claiming Jones is a chronic PED/Drug cheat, due to the lack of flagged samples from other dates.

I'm sure most of us agree all athletes should abide by the rules set out by their respective sports. Are you/Cormier still claiming Jones has been cheating, ever since, and potentially before USADA took over for the UFC? Let's just hope USADA keeps samples like the IOC's ADA, so that if Jones was/is a chronic PED/Drug cheat, he eventually gets caught somewhere down the line. Either way, I'll still continue to enjoy the fights that come along, and trust that the UFC/USADA will do their jobs.

What I meant about not knowing the first thing about ED pills, was I don't know anything about their formulation, chemical make up or effects. Doesn't mean I was implying Jones didn't try to claim tainted ED pills as an excuse. And it definitely doesn't mean I believe (Jones's) anyone's stories. In fact, that's why I maintain these stories irrelevant. I leave USADA's work to USADA. USADA should be able to caught Jones if he's still at it. Maybe you're arguing on a technicality. What was my mistake I didn't admit to again?

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby xSamWaynex » Aug 10. 2017, 03:39

0T0 wrote:I think I understand where you're at, and here's my distinction:

I would consider Justino a fighter with a past history of chronic PED/Drug cheating because she was caught a few different times in her career. But until Jones is flagged again for PEDs, most (or maybe only, I) wouldn't be confident claiming Jones is a chronic PED/Drug cheat, due to the lack of flagged samples from other dates.

I'm sure most of us agree all athletes should abide by the rules set out by their respective sports. Are you/Cormier still claiming Jones has been cheating, ever since, and potentially before USADA took over for the UFC? Let's just hope USADA keeps samples like the IOC's ADA, so that if Jones was/is a chronic PED/Drug cheat, he eventually gets caught somewhere down the line. Either way, I'll still continue to enjoy the fights that come along, and trust that the UFC/USADA will do their jobs.

What I meant about not knowing the first thing about ED pills, was I don't know anything about their formulation, chemical make up or effects. Doesn't mean I was implying Jones didn't try to claim tainted ED pills as an excuse. And it definitely doesn't mean I believe (Jones's) anyone's stories. In fact, that's why I maintain these stories irrelevant. I leave USADA's work to USADA. USADA should be able to caught Jones if he's still at it. Maybe you're arguing on a technicality. What was my mistake I didn't admit to again?

Firstly as I said in my last comment there is not point in conversing on your mistake anymore, as it has been pointed out to you three times already and yet you still failed to admit to making it. So let's just move on and forget it.

Now, Justino was actually only caught once in her career. She was caught with steroids in her system. The other time you are thinking of she was cleared by WADA and the AC because it was a prescription given to her by a licensed medical doctor for birth control which a lot of other female fighters happen to be taking. A similar situation happened to Chad Mendes. Chad was popped by USADA because a cream he takes for his psoriasis had a substance that was banned without a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption.) So, with that new knowledge you have about Justino, if you are willing to consider her a chronic PED/Drug cheat after only one offense on record, what's your excuse for not considering Jones one? Now mind you I too think that she has been on PED's for quite some time. Her facial structure changed. Her voice got deeper. Her muscles became way more pronounced in too short of a period of time. So I am not saying that she isn't actually a chronic PED user, but she has only been caught once in her career.

As far as you not believing Jon's story, if you truly believe that USADA did the right thing then you actually do believe Jon's story by default. It really is that simple. Now just because you might not know about the chemical composition of something, again it doesn't take an expert to be able to read the results and listen to what the experts had to say on the matter. In Jon's case two separate anti-doping experts said that Jon's T/E ratio warranted further investigation. The only thing that caused Jon to not get investigated further was the fact that there were other fighters in his weight class with lower T/E ratios that saved his ass. I truly believe the reason you don't want to say that Jon is possibly a chronic PED/Drug cheat is because of the fact that you are a fan of his. Again, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of someone. But whenever that fandom starts to cloud your good judgement or cause you to not be able to see a logical argument that is being presented THEN it becomes a problem. A lot of people did the same thing with Conor after the first Diaz fight. They made up all kinds of excuses for him. I am a HUGE Conor fan, but if I wouldn't have been able to see what Conor did wrong in the fight then I would be just as guilty as you are now over Jon. See what I'm saying? You can consider someone else that you probably aren't as big a fan of (Justino) a chronic PED user after just ONE failed drug test, but you aren't willing to apply that same rule to JBJ. I hope I have made my point clear enough this time around.
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Gogh » Aug 10. 2017, 11:09

oto getting owned by sam
in mma's dark age of roids, gsp was the best conditioned of them all. things that make you go hhhhmmmmmm

mma is a dog n pony show disguised as a legitimately run sport

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 10. 2017, 12:08

xSamWaynex wrote:
0T0 wrote:I think I understand where you're at, and here's my distinction:

I would consider Justino a fighter with a past history of chronic PED/Drug cheating because she was caught a few different times in her career. But until Jones is flagged again for PEDs, most (or maybe only, I) wouldn't be confident claiming Jones is a chronic PED/Drug cheat, due to the lack of flagged samples from other dates.

I'm sure most of us agree all athletes should abide by the rules set out by their respective sports. Are you/Cormier still claiming Jones has been cheating, ever since, and potentially before USADA took over for the UFC? Let's just hope USADA keeps samples like the IOC's ADA, so that if Jones was/is a chronic PED/Drug cheat, he eventually gets caught somewhere down the line. Either way, I'll still continue to enjoy the fights that come along, and trust that the UFC/USADA will do their jobs.

What I meant about not knowing the first thing about ED pills, was I don't know anything about their formulation, chemical make up or effects. Doesn't mean I was implying Jones didn't try to claim tainted ED pills as an excuse. And it definitely doesn't mean I believe (Jones's) anyone's stories. In fact, that's why I maintain these stories irrelevant. I leave USADA's work to USADA. USADA should be able to caught Jones if he's still at it. Maybe you're arguing on a technicality. What was my mistake I didn't admit to again?

Firstly as I said in my last comment there is not point in conversing on your mistake anymore, as it has been pointed out to you three times already and yet you still failed to admit to making it. So let's just move on and forget it.

Now, Justino was actually only caught once in her career. She was caught with steroids in her system. The other time you are thinking of she was cleared by WADA and the AC because it was a prescription given to her by a licensed medical doctor for birth control which a lot of other female fighters happen to be taking. A similar situation happened to Chad Mendes. Chad was popped by USADA because a cream he takes for his psoriasis had a substance that was banned without a TUE (Therapeutic Use Exemption.) So, with that new knowledge you have about Justino, if you are willing to consider her a chronic PED/Drug cheat after only one offense on record, what's your excuse for not considering Jones one? Now mind you I too think that she has been on PED's for quite some time. Her facial structure changed. Her voice got deeper. Her muscles became way more pronounced in too short of a period of time. So I am not saying that she isn't actually a chronic PED user, but she has only been caught once in her career.

As far as you not believing Jon's story, if you truly believe that USADA did the right thing then you actually do believe Jon's story by default. It really is that simple. Now just because you might not know about the chemical composition of something, again it doesn't take an expert to be able to read the results and listen to what the experts had to say on the matter. In Jon's case two separate anti-doping experts said that Jon's T/E ratio warranted further investigation. The only thing that caused Jon to not get investigated further was the fact that there were other fighters in his weight class with lower T/E ratios that saved his ass. I truly believe the reason you don't want to say that Jon is possibly a chronic PED/Drug cheat is because of the fact that you are a fan of his. Again, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of someone. But whenever that fandom starts to cloud your good judgement or cause you to not be able to see a logical argument that is being presented THEN it becomes a problem. A lot of people did the same thing with Conor after the first Diaz fight. They made up all kinds of excuses for him. I am a HUGE Conor fan, but if I wouldn't have been able to see what Conor did wrong in the fight then I would be just as guilty as you are now over Jon. See what I'm saying? You can consider someone else that you probably aren't as big a fan of (Justino) a chronic PED user after just ONE failed drug test, but you aren't willing to apply that same rule to JBJ. I hope I have made my point clear enough this time around.

My mistake for having a foggy memory about Justino's situation. I like her as a fighter. But I forgot the details, of all her flagged tests, thanks for clearing that up. Guess while most still believe Justino to be a chronic PED/Drug cheat, I won't continue to make that mistake.

So if what you're saying is true in Justino's case, I can't call Justino or Jones chronic PED/Drug cheats: for "just ONE failed drug test". We might be able to accuse them of being PED/Drug cheats, and they both may very well be chronic PED/Drug cheats, but that's difficult to determine due to lack of further evidence. Great! Something we can all FINALLY agree on. 

Again, it seems you have an issue with the different governing bodies that handle these situations, particularly when it comes to Jones. Like I've been saying, a layman like myself has to trust that the UFC/USADA does the right thing, for every flagged sample they discover: because whether I (Cormier/you) like it or not, we have to settle with their decision.

The UFC/USADA made their ruling for Mendes, Jones, Lesnar, Justino, etc. And since we have no say or influence to "correct" their rulings, I choose not to lose any sleep over any judgements. Whether we're hot, cold or lukewarm about any of these, or any other, rulings or outcomes: we have to accept it and move on: or not (as it seems, in your case). So, I hope that clears it up for you.
Last edited by 0T0 on Aug 10. 2017, 13:02, edited 1 time in total.
DAMN homie!!! Quit hoggin' da Hateraid! Ya suppose' ta take a swig an' pass. It a' come back 'round ta ya soon nuff! $h¡t!

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 10. 2017, 12:51

Gogh wrote:oto getting owned by sam

Hey hey!
Welcome back!
How's that little project I assigned you coming along? Guess all the tiresome research was keeping you away from the forum? Shame. But don't worry, I didn't set a deadline yet. Touching to see such love for your BFF samwayne. But didn't he say he has never been in love with a man, especially one he's never meet before? No need to explain your relationship, it'll just help to confuse a simpleton like myself, more than I already am.
Image
P.s. If I'm the mouse that got pwned, then samwayne must be the cat, so that makes you...

You guessed it: the raccoon. You're cute and fuzzy on the outside to some, and, on the inside, potentially riddled with rabies to most.
Image


G'on wit yo' bad self!
Last edited by 0T0 on Aug 10. 2017, 13:42, edited 3 times in total.
DAMN homie!!! Quit hoggin' da Hateraid! Ya suppose' ta take a swig an' pass. It a' come back 'round ta ya soon nuff! $h¡t!

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Gogh » Aug 10. 2017, 12:59

sam made oto lose his mind
in mma's dark age of roids, gsp was the best conditioned of them all. things that make you go hhhhmmmmmm

mma is a dog n pony show disguised as a legitimately run sport

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Kizzo » Aug 10. 2017, 13:03

Gogh showing approval of Sam. Is this real life?

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 10. 2017, 13:21

Gogh wrote:sam made oto lose his mind

Still, I'm no where as close to losing my mind as you have...

You're the grandaddy OG of all the haters...
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Tell me, what are your thoughts on samwanye expressing his feelings for McGregor?
Did he allude to a possible love triangle? We all suspected your weak shots at McGregor, were nothing more than a coverup.


G'on wit yo' bad self!
Last edited by 0T0 on Aug 10. 2017, 14:29, edited 2 times in total.
DAMN homie!!! Quit hoggin' da Hateraid! Ya suppose' ta take a swig an' pass. It a' come back 'round ta ya soon nuff! $h¡t!

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 10. 2017, 13:25

Kizzo wrote:Gogh showing approval of Sam. Is this real life?

I almost can't believe it myself!

This is way, way, waaaay better than a thousand Birthdays!
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DAMN homie!!! Quit hoggin' da Hateraid! Ya suppose' ta take a swig an' pass. It a' come back 'round ta ya soon nuff! $h¡t!

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Lukeo » Aug 10. 2017, 19:04

Divide & conquer!

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Terms and conditions may apply.

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Gogh » Aug 10. 2017, 20:15

oto changing the subject after getting owned by sam
in mma's dark age of roids, gsp was the best conditioned of them all. things that make you go hhhhmmmmmm

mma is a dog n pony show disguised as a legitimately run sport

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby detroit770 » Aug 10. 2017, 22:47

This thread got entertaining :lol:
RIQUE CRUZ MARTINEZ

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby detroit770 » Aug 10. 2017, 22:50

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@0T0 and @sam :lol: :fb :like
RIQUE CRUZ MARTINEZ

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby xSamWaynex » Aug 11. 2017, 04:51

0T0 wrote:My mistake for having a foggy memory about Justino's situation. I like her as a fighter. But I forgot the details, of all her flagged tests, thanks for clearing that up. Guess while most still believe Justino to be a chronic PED/Drug cheat, I won't continue to make that mistake.

So if what you're saying is true in Justino's case, I can't call Justino or Jones chronic PED/Drug cheats: for "just ONE failed drug test". We might be able to accuse them of being PED/Drug cheats, and they both may very well be chronic PED/Drug cheats, but that's difficult to determine due to lack of further evidence. Great! Something we can all FINALLY agree on. 

Again, it seems you have an issue with the different governing bodies that handle these situations, particularly when it comes to Jones. Like I've been saying, a layman like myself has to trust that the UFC/USADA does the right thing, for every flagged sample they discover: because whether I (Cormier/you) like it or not, we have to settle with their decision.

The UFC/USADA made their ruling for Mendes, Jones, Lesnar, Justino, etc. And since we have no say or influence to "correct" their rulings, I choose not to lose any sleep over any judgements. Whether we're hot, cold or lukewarm about any of these, or any other, rulings or outcomes: we have to accept it and move on: or not (as it seems, in your case). So, I hope that clears it up for you.

Like I said in my previous comment I do believe that Cyborg is a chronic PED user. Even though she has only truly failed one drug test, there are several drugs out there which are undetectable or can be masked through other agents being introduced into the system. When you look back at how she looked just a few years ago, and how drastically she changed in just a few short months and has continued to change over the years, one can only come to the conclusion that she is a chronic PED user. Her jawline became more pronounced, her voice deepened, and her muscles became more pronounced. These are all signs of someone who has been dosing. You see it a lot in female body builders.

Now as far as us actually agreeing, I think you completely missed the point I was trying to make. YOU said that you believed Cyborg to be a chronic PED user even though she had only been caught once. Yet even though Jones has ALSO been caught once you refused to even consider that he could be one. You showed a severe level of hypocrisy. That hypocrisy came about because of your adoration and fandom of JBJ. If you can consider one of them a chronic PED user after just one failed drug test, why can't you consider the other? Instead of doing that you now say NEITHER of them can be considered a chronic PED user rather than just admitting that going by your own criteria Jon COULD also be a chronic PED user.

This is not about moving on or not. This is about your hypocrisy and overall fandom of JBJ clouding your judgement in this case. Yes their grievances have already been ruled upon, but what I am talking about has nothing to do with their ruling and everything to do with you ignoring scientific evidence which was presented. The commission as well as USADA have made mistakes in the past, and yet in this instance we are supposed to believe their word to be gospel and just leave it at that? Come on man, admit it the only reason you are willing to believe what they say and let bygones be bygones in this particular case is because you are a JBJ fanboy.
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson


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