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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby MajorBA » Aug 2. 2017, 21:07

Einstein-Universe wrote:
Poochie wrote:
Einstein-Universe wrote:Fuc king hate Russian drunk rapist announcers

They probably hate you too so it doesn't matter.

No you don't matter bitch :laugh

:like Awesome comeback dude!  Way to bring your A game!  That is fantastic and substantial.  Where do you come up with these intellectually stimulating responses?  Pure Genius.  From now on I'm going to call you Einstein.
Perhaps you could do a workshop.  People would pay to see your lectures.  Book the auditorium and they will come.

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby xSamWaynex » Aug 3. 2017, 08:48

0T0 wrote:I understand Jones was flagged for an illegal substance (not PEDs) the first time he fought Cormier, and the officials (USADA, SAC, UFC, etc...) allowed him to fight and didn't strip him of his title or amend his record. Other fighters have been flagged for illegal substances, and some have had harsher penalties: it's not my place to speculate and try to connect dots. As much as I like playing detective from time to time, I leave the science to the experts and trust that the officials handle the situation.

Jones then got flagged for PED cycling substances; for the sake of argument lets say Jones got flagged for PEDs that time. USADA caught this, did further investigation and ruled that Jones be suspended. Jones has fulfilled every obligation and passed every screening since, so much so that he was able to make the walk to headline UFC 214. All the governing bodies seem to be fine with Jones resuming his fighting career, but you seem to have a problem with that.

It's because of those 2 unrelated incidents that you tried to claim like Cormier (whom I believe was making those outlandish and unfounded claims to try to get under Jones's skin), that Jones is a PED cheat and he's been doping for a long time. That's the proof I was looking for. Where's your proof of other times he doped, has his physique changed since he started doping from the time Cormier and yourself speculate? That's one of the reasons some, like myself, take exception to your statements.

If the 2 of those incidents where related, I believe he would have been suspended even longer or banned from the UFC. I don't know how else to make it any clearer for you.

I only have three points to make this time around OTO.
1.) I don't have a problem with Jon resuming his fighting career. I have never said he shouldn't be allowed to fight. The only thing I have said this entire time were factual events that happened. You have misinterpreted what I meant, and the reason for why I was stating what I was stating. If you had actually paid attention to what I have been saying, you would've seen this already and there would be no need for me to repeat myself.
Connecting the dots really isn't that hard. I think the reason why you are choosing not to in this case is because of your adoration and fandom of JBJ. You don't want to believe that Jones has possibly cheated in the past, so you make up excuses rather than seeing what is in plain sight. Jones had a "watery" sample that had too low of a T/E ratio for a man Jon's age. Jon was popped for having two estrogen blockers in his system. Estrogen blockers are known to be used by people who also use steroids or other PED's. He gave the same highly implausible defense as Anderson Silva. Also, there would've been no chance that a "**** pill" would have more than one estrogen blocker, as doing so could possibly cause the blockers to nullify each other. So, at best, Jon could've only gotten one of the two estrogen blockers in his system from a "**** pill." How do you account for the other one OTO?  It doesn't take a super sleuth like Sherlock Holmes to see how all these things add up. But like I said if you choose to ignore it that's on you.
2.) Jon's physique did change. Image
The change was actually quite dramatic. Jon put on a lot of muscle weight during his time off. The amount of muscle he put on, and in the time frame in which he did it is also quite suspect. I know you saw these pictures man. There is no damn way you didn't, especially with as big a fan of JBJ as you are. Because he was suspended and knew he wasn't going to have to worry about testing, I posit that he simply didn't cycle off like he normally did and allowed his body to take full advantage of the PED's. Again this isn't really so much speculation as it is an educated hypothesis based on the evidence at hand.
3.) Jon was given the longest suspension they could possibly give him as this was his first actually failed piss test. Yet you act like he just got a slap on the wrist. You do so because it better fits your narrative. I provided links to sources which were backed up by medical professionals, or based on scientific evidence or research on the matter. Yet you act like this is all speculation on my part. AGAIN, you do so because it better fits your narrative. You on the other hand have provided nothing more than an emotional plea based on how you see things, and how you feel about the fighter JBJ. So to quote your last sentence " I don't know how else to make it any clearer for you."
"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 3. 2017, 13:47

xSamWaynex wrote:
0T0 wrote:I understand Jones was flagged for an illegal substance (not PEDs) the first time he fought Cormier, and the officials (USADA, SAC, UFC, etc...) allowed him to fight and didn't strip him of his title or amend his record. Other fighters have been flagged for illegal substances, and some have had harsher penalties: it's not my place to speculate and try to connect dots. As much as I like playing detective from time to time, I leave the science to the experts and trust that the officials handle the situation.

Jones then got flagged for PED cycling substances; for the sake of argument lets say Jones got flagged for PEDs that time. USADA caught this, did further investigation and ruled that Jones be suspended. Jones has fulfilled every obligation and passed every screening since, so much so that he was able to make the walk to headline UFC 214. All the governing bodies seem to be fine with Jones resuming his fighting career, but you seem to have a problem with that.

It's because of those 2 unrelated incidents that you tried to claim like Cormier (whom I believe was making those outlandish and unfounded claims to try to get under Jones's skin), that Jones is a PED cheat and he's been doping for a long time. That's the proof I was looking for. Where's your proof of other times he doped, has his physique changed since he started doping from the time Cormier and yourself speculate? That's one of the reasons some, like myself, take exception to your statements.

If the 2 of those incidents where related, I believe he would have been suspended even longer or banned from the UFC. I don't know how else to make it any clearer for you.

I only have three points to make this time around OTO.
1.) I don't have a problem with Jon resuming his fighting career. I have never said he shouldn't be allowed to fight. The only thing I have said this entire time were factual events that happened. You have misinterpreted what I meant, and the reason for why I was stating what I was stating. If you had actually paid attention to what I have been saying, you would've seen this already and there would be no need for me to repeat myself.
Connecting the dots really isn't that hard. I think the reason why you are choosing not to in this case is because of your adoration and fandom of JBJ. You don't want to believe that Jones has possibly cheated in the past, so you make up excuses rather than seeing what is in plain sight. Jones had a "watery" sample that had too low of a T/E ratio for a man Jon's age. Jon was popped for having two estrogen blockers in his system. Estrogen blockers are known to be used by people who also use steroids or other PED's. He gave the same highly implausible defense as Anderson Silva. Also, there would've been no chance that a "**** pill" would have more than one estrogen blocker, as doing so could possibly cause the blockers to nullify each other. So, at best, Jon could've only gotten one of the two estrogen blockers in his system from a "**** pill." How do you account for the other one OTO?  It doesn't take a super sleuth like Sherlock Holmes to see how all these things add up. But like I said if you choose to ignore it that's on you.
2.) Jon's physique did change. Image
The change was actually quite dramatic. Jon put on a lot of muscle weight during his time off. The amount of muscle he put on, and in the time frame in which he did it is also quite suspect. I know you saw these pictures man. There is no damn way you didn't, especially with as big a fan of JBJ as you are. Because he was suspended and knew he wasn't going to have to worry about testing, I posit that he simply didn't cycle off like he normally did and allowed his body to take full advantage of the PED's. Again this isn't really so much speculation as it is an educated hypothesis based on the evidence at hand.
3.) Jon was given the longest suspension they could possibly give him as this was his first actually failed piss test. Yet you act like he just got a slap on the wrist. You do so because it better fits your narrative. I provided links to sources which were backed up by medical professionals, or based on scientific evidence or research on the matter. Yet you act like this is all speculation on my part. AGAIN, you do so because it better fits your narrative. You on the other hand have provided nothing more than an emotional plea based on how you see things, and how you feel about the fighter JBJ. So to quote your last sentence " I don't know how else to make it any clearer for you."

I was never implying that Jones's suspension for PED cycling substances was a slap on the wrist. USADA decided on the course of action they took, and Jones fulfilled his obligations to their satisfaction I imagine. Maybe there's a few people at USADA, like yourself/Cormier, that still insist Jones has a history of cheating (doping). Connecting all the dots you want, won't replace hard evidence like a few more positive blood samples.

I'm not going to fully explain to you why taking photos with no context can be misleading. Better evidence would be fight images, either stills or video. Jones claims he's added more weight and strength training to his programs. And before he was suspended for the hit and run, Jones was already promising to expect great things from him when he moved to Albuquerque to dedicate more time to his martial arts. I don't believe his physique has changed that drastically, also Jones looked more like the 1st photo in Jones/Cormier 1: which Cormier was accusing Jones of doping.

Jones is the shrimp in a very big but very lean family, hence the nickname "Bones". But those photos you provided can easily fit your/Cormier's narrative as well as Jones's. Is it possible your/Cormier's speculation may be proven to be true somewhere down the road? It's quite possible, but the key word is "proven". Until it's proven that he's a chronic PED cheat, anything you or I, or anyone else say is just speculation/opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong to have those suspicions, but much like Cormier, your bold declaration of Jones being a chronic PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

I think Jones is the true #1 P4P, and I even rank Cruz higher than Johnson, but if Jones never fights again: it won't be the end of the world for me. You might rejoice in the streets, but it won't bother me one way or another if he never fought in the UFC or any other promotion again. MMA is/was doing just fine in the absence of top fighters and champs, like Cruz, Jones, Silva, St. Pierre, Rousey, McGregor. And MMA will continue without Jones, Johnson, Cruz, McGregor, etc... So I'm sure they'll be more great fighters and fights to enjoy.
Last edited by 0T0 on Aug 4. 2017, 02:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby TexasFan » Aug 3. 2017, 21:01

The Greatest Ever has returned and taken his rightful place on the throne.

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Kizzo » Aug 3. 2017, 21:04

TexasFan wrote:The Greatest Ever has returned and taken his rightful place on the throne.

I bet you'll abandon him as soon as he loses.

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby xSamWaynex » Aug 3. 2017, 21:43

0T0 wrote:I was never implying that Jones's suspension for PED cycling substances was a slap on the wrist. USADA decided on the course of action they took, and Jones fulfilled his obligations to their satisfaction I imagine. Maybe there's a few people at USADA, like yourself/Cormier, that still insist Jones has a history of cheating (doping). Connecting all the dots you want, won't replace hard evidence like a few more positive blood samples.

I'm not going to fully explain to you why taking photos with no context can be misleading. Better evidence would be fight images, either stills or video. Jones claims he's added more weight and strength training to his programs. And before he was suspended for the hit and run, Jones was already promising to expect great things from him when he moved to Albuquerque to dedicate more time to his martial arts. I don't believe his physique has changed that drastically, also Jones looked more like the 1st photo in Jones/Cormier 1: which Cormier was accusing Jones of doping.

Jones is the shrimp in a very big but very lean family, hence the nickname "Bones". But those photos you provided can easily fit your/Cormier's narrative as well as Jones's. Is it possible your/Cormier's speculation may be proven to be true somewhere down the road? It's quite possible, but the key word is "proven". Until it's proven that he's a chronic PED cheat, anything you or I, or anyone else say is just speculation/opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong to have those suspicions, but much like Cormier, your bold declaration of Jones being a PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

I think Jones is the true #1 P4P, and I even rank Cruz higher than Johnson, but if Jones never fights again: it won't be the end of the world for me. You might rejoice in the streets, but it won't bother me one way or another if he never fought in the UFC or any other promotion again. MMA is/was doing just fine in the absence of top fighters and champs, like Cruz, Jones, Silva, St. Pierre, Rousey, McGregor. And MMA will continue without Jones, Johnson, Cruz, McGregor, etc... So I'm sure they'll be more great fighters and fights to enjoy.

You stated previously that if there was any way the two incidences I posted were connected that he would've gotten a longer sentence by the UFC/USADA/The Athletic Commission. So you actually did imply that the punishment he received was a slap on the wrist by comparison.

The photos I provided were not taken out of context at all. YOU said his physique hadn't changed, and after I posted the pictures you started giving reasons for the change in physique yourself. You can't have it both ways man.

Do you not understand what the words "posit" and "possibly" mean? I told you from the beginning that what I was saying, while being based on scientific evidence, was purely my own opinion of the situation. I also told you that the reason you are unwilling to see it from my perspective is because of your adoration and fandom for JBJ. Go back and reread what I wrote OTO instead of trying to make me come off as some conspiracy theorist. What I said about Jones isn't based on "hate", and the only people that use the term "hater" are people who have no good argument themselves. Instead of proving me wrong with sources of your own, you just call me a "hater." Instead of giving a reasonable explanation for how at least one other estrogen blocker got in his system, which could not be the result of **** pills, you simply call me a "hater" to avoid the argument completely. Instead of explaining how his T/E ratio was so low, you simply call me a "hater." It's pretty damn ridiculous man to be completely honest with you.

Here's the thing man, while I have been commenting on several other fights and fighters since Jones absence from the sport, I haven't seen you doing the same. In fact you started posting again as soon as Jon came back into the picture. When Jon isn't fighting, you're pretty damn silent on pretty much every other fight or fighter. So don't act like Jon doesn't mean anything to you man because we both know that to be a lie. I won't "rejoice in the streets" when Jon stops fighting. In fact the entire time Jon was gone, I didn't even reference the guy. If Jon were to stop fighting I simply wouldn't care one way or the other, but I know for damn sure that YOU abso-fucking-lutely would.
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby xSamWaynex » Aug 3. 2017, 21:47

Kizzo wrote:
TexasFan wrote:The Greatest Ever has returned and taken his rightful place on the throne.

I bet you'll abandon him as soon as he loses.

That's what the majority of the Jones fans did when he fucked up like he did. I haven't seen a post from TexasFan in quite a while. It's amazing how all these so called "fight fans" have come out of the woodwork again now that Jones is back haha. Why can't they be honest and just say what they really are, which is Jon Bones Jones fanboys? Being a fan is fine, being a fanboy though takes it to a completely different level.
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Gogh » Aug 4. 2017, 00:29

0T0 wrote:Jones then got flagged for PED cycling substances...


0T0 wrote:...your bold declaration of Jones being a PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

are you serious?
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 4. 2017, 02:11

Gogh wrote:
0T0 wrote:Jones then got flagged for PED cycling substances...


0T0 wrote:...your bold declaration of Jones being a PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

are you serious?

Thanks for pointing out my error, I meant "chronic PED cheat".
Made the correction.
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby detroit770 » Aug 4. 2017, 03:03

0T0 wrote:
Gogh wrote:
0T0 wrote:Jones then got flagged for PED cycling substances...


0T0 wrote:...your bold declaration of Jones being a PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

are you serious?

Thanks for pointing out my error, I meant "chronic PED cheat".
Made the correction.

Image
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby Kizzo » Aug 4. 2017, 03:24

0T0 wrote:
Gogh wrote:
0T0 wrote:Jones then got flagged for PED cycling substances...


0T0 wrote:...your bold declaration of Jones being a PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

are you serious?

Thanks for pointing out my error, I meant "chronic PED cheat".
Made the correction.


Somebody just got...

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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby detroit770 » Aug 4. 2017, 03:36

Gogh wrote:Image




1qa
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby 0T0 » Aug 4. 2017, 05:39

xSamWaynex wrote:
0T0 wrote:I was never implying that Jones's suspension for PED cycling substances was a slap on the wrist. USADA decided on the course of action they took, and Jones fulfilled his obligations to their satisfaction I imagine. Maybe there's a few people at USADA, like yourself/Cormier, that still insist Jones has a history of cheating (doping). Connecting all the dots you want, won't replace hard evidence like a few more positive blood samples.

I'm not going to fully explain to you why taking photos with no context can be misleading. Better evidence would be fight images, either stills or video. Jones claims he's added more weight and strength training to his programs. And before he was suspended for the hit and run, Jones was already promising to expect great things from him when he moved to Albuquerque to dedicate more time to his martial arts. I don't believe his physique has changed that drastically, also Jones looked more like the 1st photo in Jones/Cormier 1: which Cormier was accusing Jones of doping.

Jones is the shrimp in a very big but very lean family, hence the nickname "Bones". But those photos you provided can easily fit your/Cormier's narrative as well as Jones's. Is it possible your/Cormier's speculation may be proven to be true somewhere down the road? It's quite possible, but the key word is "proven". Until it's proven that he's a chronic PED cheat, anything you or I, or anyone else say is just speculation/opinion. I'm not saying you're wrong to have those suspicions, but much like Cormier, your bold declaration of Jones being a PED cheat, makes you come off as a hater.

I think Jones is the true #1 P4P, and I even rank Cruz higher than Johnson, but if Jones never fights again: it won't be the end of the world for me. You might rejoice in the streets, but it won't bother me one way or another if he never fought in the UFC or any other promotion again. MMA is/was doing just fine in the absence of top fighters and champs, like Cruz, Jones, Silva, St. Pierre, Rousey, McGregor. And MMA will continue without Jones, Johnson, Cruz, McGregor, etc... So I'm sure they'll be more great fighters and fights to enjoy.

You stated previously that if there was any way the two incidences I posted were connected that he would've gotten a longer sentence by the UFC/USADA/The Athletic Commission. So you actually did imply that the punishment he received was a slap on the wrist by comparison.

The photos I provided were not taken out of context at all. YOU said his physique hadn't changed, and after I posted the pictures you started giving reasons for the change in physique yourself. You can't have it both ways man.

Do you not understand what the words "posit" and "possibly" mean? I told you from the beginning that what I was saying, while being based on scientific evidence, was purely my own opinion of the situation. I also told you that the reason you are unwilling to see it from my perspective is because of your adoration and fandom for JBJ. Go back and reread what I wrote OTO instead of trying to make me come off as some conspiracy theorist. What I said about Jones isn't based on "hate", and the only people that use the term "hater" are people who have no good argument themselves. Instead of proving me wrong with sources of your own, you just call me a "hater." Instead of giving a reasonable explanation for how at least one other estrogen blocker got in his system, which could not be the result of **** pills, you simply call me a "hater" to avoid the argument completely. Instead of explaining how his T/E ratio was so low, you simply call me a "hater." It's pretty damn ridiculous man to be completely honest with you.

Here's the thing man, while I have been commenting on several other fights and fighters since Jones absence from the sport, I haven't seen you doing the same. In fact you started posting again as soon as Jon came back into the picture. When Jon isn't fighting, you're pretty damn silent on pretty much every other fight or fighter. So don't act like Jon doesn't mean anything to you man because we both know that to be a lie. I won't "rejoice in the streets" when Jon stops fighting. In fact the entire time Jon was gone, I didn't even reference the guy. If Jon were to stop fighting I simply wouldn't care one way or the other, but I know for damn sure that YOU abso-fucking-lutely would.

If those 2 incidences were connected Jones WOULD have gotten a longer suspension or potentially banned, that doesn't mean I think he got a slap on the wrist. In the history of sport to date, athletes with similar failed test results, have had lighter and others heavier rulings. Again, that doesn't mean I think Jones got a slap on wrist.

Video of Jones squaring off to receive the refs final instructions would probably be the best visual evidence to present, to us laymen. But there's a problem with using photos with no context like a time stamp or other information like his training, whether he was in camp, between  camps, weight cutting, etc. The problem is all these unanswered questions those photos (stills) create. And that's why ADAs around the world don't regard stills of athletes' physiques as evidence. USADA went with the only evidence they needed, the only evidence relevant: urine, blood and hair.

I wasn't making excuses for Jones's change in physique, I was simply stating Jones's narrative, which could be just as true as your/Cormier's narrative of Jones being a chronic PED cheat. Of course Jones's physique has changed, but I maintain that Jones's physique hasn't changed "that drastically". Then again, maybe the change in Jones's physique, for his particular build, is significant enough to make someone suspicious, but it still doesn't bring us any closer to finding out if Jones cheated in the past or is cheating to this very day. More evidence would be a help.

I don't have to explain what or why banned chemicals were in Jones's system, or why Jones's hormones were out of whack, or any of the other anomalies flagged from Jones's samples. My explanation, or anyone else's (including Jones's), has no real significance in determining the truth. I believe only video (of Jones in the act), or physical evidence (PED/Drug paraphernalia), could prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, the reasonable suspicion that you/Cormier have of Jones being guilty of PED/Drug cheating, true or not. As far as USADA is concerned Jones is a PED/Drug cheat, and that's fine enough for a layman like me.

What I have a problem with, is your/Cormier's bold declaration of Jones being a chronic PED cheat. When Cormier's claim was challenged by Jones, Cormier chose not to provide any evidence. If you're going to make a claim, you should be prepared to back it up. Now does that mean, because you/Cormier don't have any evidence that would be of interest to the UFC/USADA that Jones has never cheated in the past? No. Does it mean that if we never get sufficient evidence to prove Jones cheated in the past, that it's unfair to speculate? No. But to make the outlandish claim Jones cheated other times in the past with no requisite evidence, makes you sound, like Cormier: a hater.

I'm not going to really touch on your last paragraph, because it has little to do with the topics at hand, and more to do with your frustration. I'm on this particular forum everyday, unfortunately, and I usually have a separate browser window opened, with multiple MMAshare and MMA/combat sport tabs open. Guess you'll just have to take my word for it. But if you don't want to, that's more than fine also: because anyone can see when you or I joined the forum, our post count, what threads we posted on, read our past posts, or see when we're actually online; that's all I have to say.

One last thing, Cormier has every right to hate on Jones (or any other opponent), and do or say any outlandish thing he's thinking (like claiming Jones is a chronic PED cheat that has cheated in the past) to get under his opponent's skin, especially considering their (Cormier and Jones's) personal history, what's your excuse?
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Re: DANIEL CORMIER vs JON JONES 2

Postby yodelling » Aug 5. 2017, 03:56

@0T0, are you normally this boring and redundant or just when you ramble on and on and on about Jones? Are you even reading your posts before publishing them?
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